The ERP Organizational Change Journal

Episode 37 

Learning and Development (L&D) and human performance technology (HPT) and its Return on Investment

by | Aug 18, 2021

by Dr. Jack G. Nestell | The ERP Organizational Change Journal Podcast

In This Episode

In this episode, we will discuss “Learning and Development (L&D) and human performance technology (HPT): and its Return on Investment:” with Dr. Tim Brock. Dr. Brock is an Author, Speaker, ROI Institute Senior Consultant, Adjunct Professor, and Retired Air Force veteran. 

In this episode we examine effective and efficient L&D. How does an organization know that they are using the right methodology?  How do we know if a development plan is effective? And, how do we know that learning and development efforts are realizing a return on investment? Let’s ask our guest. 

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Dr. Tim Brock 

Tim Brock

Dr. Tim Brock is a senior consultant for ROI Institute, the leading source of ROI competency building, implementation support, networking, and research. Tim helps organizations implement the ROI Methodology at more than 5,000 organizations in over 60 countries. He teaches all ROI Institute workshops, including the five-day ROI Certification workshop. Tim is frequently an invited conference speaker and provides presentations at association meetings and international conferences

More About Tim


Tim is a faculty member at Capella University in Minneapolis, Minnesota where he teaches master’s and doctorate courses on the principles and practices of human performance technology and the ROI Methodology. He also mentors doctorate students to apply the performance improvement and ROI evaluation methodologies as part of their final applied research capstone project. Tim is also on the faculty of the United Nations System Staff College at Turin, Italy, where he trains program and project managers around the globe how to integrate the ROI Methodology into their results-based management strategies. He is a member of the program advisory committee for Full Sail University’s Master of Science in Instructional Design and Technology and a reviewer for the International Society for Performance Improvement’s peer-reviewed Performance Improvement Quarterly.

During his 20-year Air Force career, Tim was responsible for assessing, measuring, and evaluating the effectiveness of the missile launch officer initial qualification training program for all five of the USAF’s Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) weapon systems. Additionally, Tim commanded nuclear launch operations facilities for two ICBM weapon systems. Tim was a key team leader for the Air Force’s reserve officer commissioning program curriculum redesign, which is used at 148 colleges and universities across the country to prepare officer candidates for 21st Century leadership responsibilities.


ROI Institute

Episode Resources & Links

Episode Highlights & More about this Episode


04:38 What does effective and efficient L&D mean to you? 

06:39 How does L&D relate to ROI and what is your methodology for measuring and explaining it to stakeholders?

09:42 What drives your passion for effective and efficient L&D practice? 

10:55 How to define human performance technology (HPT) and what is its relation to learning and development (L&D)? 

14:15 What would you say is the founding “charter” of HPT? 

15:45 Why is the original charter important and what is the “eclectic-paradox” warning?

19:38 You wrote That Roger Kaufman wrote a short, thought-provoking article entitled “HPT and PI at the Crossroads” (2019). He made two points. One was that everybody seems to be jumping on the performance improvement bandwagon to help people work faster, cheaper, and better. The danger, Kaufman asserts, is a focus on individuals doing their jobs right rather than on doing the right jobs. Can you explain this further to our listeners? And, you have an Incredible analogy about the Titanic, I loved your arranging the deck chair analogy here. Can you say more about it? 

23:22 This is a great question you ask in your article so let’s share it. What does it mean to be principle-driven and Why is HPT Principles-Driven? 

25:40 How exactly Do Principles Help the HPT Profession?

32:52 GILBERT’S THEOREMS OF ENGINEERING WORTHY PERFORMANCE. In your paper you state that “It is common to read that Gilbert had three theorems. It seems he had one core theorem and three corollary theorems.” These are;

  1. Core Theorem: Human Competence Is a Function of Worthy Performance
  2. First Economic Corollary: Worth Reflects the Ratio Between Accomplishment, Value, and Costs
  3. Second Economic Corollary: Measuring Accomplishments Precedes Measuring Behaviors
  4. Third Economic Corollary: Valued Performance Is a Result of Behavior and Environment

Based on this, what was your conclusion from this paper? 

35:56 In your article you talk about critical levels of effective and efficient learning: level 0 is Input, level 1 is reaction, level 2 is learning, level 3 is reaction and Level 4 is impact. How Can we make learning and development effective?

40:54 I like your part 4 conclusion and I would like to share with our listeners: “The State of Engineering worthy performance and the 10 Standards: Part 1, Can you tell us more

47:30 Your Article “Performance Analytics: The Missing Big Data Link Between Learning Analytics and Business Analytics”, Can you share more on this?

47:43 In the HPT and L&D space, what are you seeing? What is the Gap and what are people’s mindsets and ways of approaching that gap?

51:44 “The Backyard Human Performance Technologist: Applying the Development Research Methodology to Develop and Validate a New Instructional Design Framework”, Tell us more about the article.

55:07 As fellow practitioners, we absolutely benefit from learning from our colleagues and friends, both “boots on the ground” as well as researchers. How would you summarize this conversation? If you had to distill your work into 3 or 4 sentences, what would you say to ERP organizational change practitioners? What would you tell them to do, see, and be?



Thomas Gilbert, founder of HPT 

Roger Kaufman, “HPT at the crossroads”, 2019: Kaufman, R. (2019: March) HPT and PI at the crossroads. PerformanceXpress. ISPI, Silver Spring, MD.

Dr. Brock’s 3 part series: 


Part 2:

Part 3: (This article was originally published in Performance Improvement, vol. 58, no. 10, November/December 2019.)

Schoenfeld, A. H. (1987). What’s all the fuss about metacognition. Cognitive science and mathematics education, 189, 215.

More Related Episodes from TheERPocj 


Episode 30: Evidence-Based Performance Improvement, Mr. Guy Wallace,

Episode 22: Effective Principle Based Learning, Mr. Alexander Salas,

Episode 2: Organizational Performance Improvement, Dr. Richard E. Clark,

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